Everything Changes

Dude that was hi-larious. No other way to put it. I read your blog, scrolled down and read Jon's, re-read yours again because it was just that funny to me. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I totally agree with you about the lack of respect for the elderly that the youth of today hold. Now I'm not sure if I agree with the part of the bible that says "Your words show what is in your heart". I think the message that you are trying convey is more important that the way you convey it.

I use the F word alot. More than most some would say. But I try to keep the swearing to a minimum when around other's that don't want to hear it. Most of the time I just use a different language and then nobody even knows what I'm saying anymore. I've gone to those types of lengths to avoid swearing around the young and old. (Not to make anybody think that I'm trying to sound all high and mighty about learning another language just to swear in, My step-father was Dutch and he swore alot in his native language, I just picked up all I needed to know from him.)

Here's the part of my comments where the questions start to flow. Both Jon and Paul mentioned Leviticus in there comments and I'm totally clueless here. What does Leviticus have to do with the price of nuts in Brazil. (That's just Kyle speak for "Can I get a rundown on why it was mentioned") I don't happen to have a bible handy to look it up and I'm confused out of mind about what people are talking about. Not being in the loop is not alot of fun. And question numero 2: Just what in blue tarnation (Sorry I was just watchin old Looney Tunes re-runs and I'm a big Yosemite Sam fan) does "Embracing what God does for you is the best thing you can do for him" mean? Once again no bible to look it up myself, so if somebody wouldn't mind rollin me a bone here I'd be a happy little Kyle right about now.

Anyways, those are just some of my opinions. I could be wrong.


Kyle

P.S. My personal favourite part of Jon's comment was about wether or not you'd have the time or strength to respond. Anyone feel like takin a stab at just what he meant there? Any takers? Sounded like a judgement call to me. I don't know alot about the bible but I know that somewhere's in there it says "Judge not, lest ye be judged yourself". Or maybe I'm wrong. Either or it's up to whoever reads this.    

Kyle - thanks for your comments - as always, I appreciate them.

"Embracing what God does for you is the best thing you can do for him." That is from a verse in the book of Romans that has been translated in a "modern" English, for easier understanding. (So much for THAT idea!)

Another translation of the same verse reads this way: "Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is — his good, pleasing and perfect will."

Hmmm. Not exactly sure if THAT cleared things up. Here is the "bone" that might help you out - God "did" things for us. For example, God sent Jesus to the earth to die as a sacrifice for our sin. The Bible says that if we believe that Jesus died for our sins and believe in our heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, we will be saved.

"Embracing what God does for us..." Embracing his forgiveness, his mercy, etc. - that is "the best thing you can do for him."

Another translation of the same verse says, "Don't be like the people of this world, but let God change the way you think." It's like saying, take advantage of all that God has done for you - that will please God.

Clear as mud?

RE: Leviticus... that was a joke. In a second email reply from Jon he wrote: "Sorry about the Leviticus thing. That was just me being sarcastic... it's something i'm trying to work on. I wasn't serious."

I knew he wasn't serious when I read his comment. You see, Leviticus is often thought of as... well, dry or boring. Not exactly the first place you would look for verses regarding this topic. If you wanted to find history or geneologies - yup, check out the book of Leviticus.

RE: Jon's closing comment "about whether or not I'd have the time or strength to respond" - I think that was just something he uses a lot at the end of his emails / comments.

"Anyways, those are just some of my opinions. I could be wrong."

;-)    

wow. love to see that my interjections can cause such lengthy thoughts to and from people. my idea of what blogging should be within the church community at large and not just shallow blathering back and forth. iron sharpening iron.

i thank you, paul, for your willingness to engage a brother. which is what was meant by the end of my comment/e mail. i didn't want you to feel somehow obligated and thereby annoyed at having to answer me and my thoughts. i know that something of this magnitude could be a complete detour for you and your schedule and to answer, truly answer, would take a piece of the most precious resource god has given to each one of us. time.
so, i wanted you to know that if you didn't want to invest the time into responding to me, i would not be hurt or offended in any way shape or form. after all, i was the one who broke into your world completely out of the blue.

yes, paul, you hit the nail on the head with your last response to me (which the rest didn't see, so they may be in the dark a little here) my reactions against legalism are actually much less severe now than they used to be. as i said, growing up in the church, i encountered a lot. i actually had to endure a situation where the board at the church where my father was pastor started strong arming him to force me to cut my hair because it was longer than they appreciated. they started throwing out verses about a man not being able to control his own household, how can he be in charge of the church. i'm sure you're familiar with it. it caused him a lot of grief and pain and he and i worked it out ourselves, but that, along with several other instances have left me sour to a certain degree. but i cannot shake my great love for the bride of christ and my desire to see her grow. my final question in this give and take to you, who have been a very gracious giver of your time to me, is,"where do we find the balance between those who perhaps ARE being legalistic and the hold that they should be allowed to have over us and our lives and the goings on in any particular congregation or life?"
Kyle, i too use the f word whenever i find it appropriate, though not gratuitivly, and have learned to not use it around people who don't appreciate it. and this is probably a good thing. i'm just trying to flesh out what the boundaries should be between being conciliatory (or polite) and letting yourself be pushed around into a mold that was never meant for you. i know that jesus never condoned sin in people but he never condemned them either. he would always say, i forgive you, now straighten out. the only people he ever raised his voice at in anger (at least in recorded history) were the "religious" types. he actually called them a,"brood of vipers" and "sons of hell", which, if i may be allowed a little freedom in this place, i would take to being tantmount to calling a group of pastors today, "self righteous mother fuckers".

having said all of this, i'm just hoping you may have some insight that you may be willing to share into how you found freedom from legalism while still encountering it. or maybe you don't anymore, i don't know.

and kyle, in leviticus' defense, it can be a beautiful and moving book when read in context of the greater story of god leading his people out into the wilderness and bringing moses up onto the mountain for a chat. leviticus is the main body of that chat. don't read it on it's own or without a heart that is passionate for everything about god as it will indeed be the most boring and dry thing you have ever read. or not. god has done more amazing things than make leviticus interesting. thanks for your time and compassion gentleman.    

Jon asked... "Where do we find the balance between those who perhaps ARE being legalistic and the hold that they should be allowed to have over us and our lives and the goings on in any particular congregation or life?"

Let me start by saying that it took me about 7 years to walk OUT of legalism and the "control" it (and the leadership that abused it) had over me. And it was like going to hell and back. Not an easy journey, but one that was well worth it. My life was changed!

During that time there were a couple of books that were very significant:

1. A Tale of Three Kings by Gene Edwards - One review comments: "Many Christians have experienced pain, loss, and heartache at the hands of other believers. To those believers, this compelling story offers comfort, healing and hope." And it did just that for me.

2. The Ragamuffin Gospel : Good News for the Bedraggled, Beat-Up, and Burnt Out by Brenning Manning - "Manning understands better than most that behind our facades of order and self-assurance are inadequacies that can find healing only in Jesus. While the powerful and religious elite challenged him, Jesus embraced and healed and fed the needs of the ragamuffins. Jesus delivered love, healing, and, most of all, grace."

The review for The Ragamuffin gospel continues... "Grace is defined as 'the freely given and unmerited favor and love of God.' But, as Manning points out, we have "twisted the gospel of grace into religious bondage and distorted the image of God into an eternal, small-minded bookkeeper." In reality, God offers us grace immeasurable. Brennan Manning gently encourages us to embrace that grace in the face of our greatest needs. And Manning certainly knows whereof he speaks, having taken a journey from priesthood and academic achievement through a collapse into alcoholism. Manning came face to face with his need, finally abandoning himself to grace. And he invites us now to join him in a life of grace."

God also used Oswald Chamber's daily devotional called My Utmost For His Highest. At the beginning of my journey I read these words in the February 5th entry of the book: "It is one thing to follow God’s way of service if you are regarded as a hero, but quite another thing if the road marked out for you by God requires becoming a 'doormat' under other people’s feet. God’s purpose may be to teach you to say, 'I know how to be abased . . .' ( Philippians 4:12 ). Are you ready to be sacrificed like that? Are you ready to be less than a mere drop in the bucket-to be so totally insignificant that no one remembers you even if they think of those you served?"

It would take me volumes of blog comments to really tell you how God helped me find freedom and "balance" (as you say) in this area. For now, let me simply say this - God is NOT legalistic, and He doesn't expect us to submit to ungodly "control." Yes, sometimes we have to submit to "evil kings" - but we do NOT have to live by their rules - especially if they go against our standards, or the standards of God's Word.

I would encourage you to read the two books I mentioned, if you had the time. I'd even be willing to send them to you if you wanted me to. (Just email me and let me know.) They will help you on your own journey - because your journey will not be the same as mine. Although the end result will - you will find liberty in your life, under God's mighty hand of grace.    

Cool......Like the way Kyle expresses himself and like the way Jon wants things to be real ..... :-)
.. and I "Generally" always like what Paul says
Bottom Line
Jesus is madly in love with us...and tolerates us no matter where we're at ....
F shot and all.    

I feel compelled to leave a little comment for Jon. I am really amazed that someone would use the words of Jesus and come up with a modern translation of cursing. Jesus was simply using different ways of calling them hypocrites, but I cannot imagine the sinless, holy one calling people names that would imply that they were or had been having sex with their mothers, as that is what the vile term “M.F.” literally means.

Although I am far from perfect, I personally never use the F word because, I believe it to be a sin. What is more, it is a manifestation of an inarticulate mind attempting to express itself forcefully. One can be angry without sinning. If you want to truly find out what is in a man’s heart, just watch and listen to him when he is angry.    

Jesus said in Matthew 12:30.31 and 32 MSG
"This is war, and there is no neutral ground. If you're not on my side, you're the enemy; if you're not helping, you're making things worse.
"There's nothing done or said that can't be forgiven. But if you deliberately persist in your slanders against God's Spirit, you are repudiating the very One who forgives. If you reject the Son of Man out of some misunderstanding, the Holy Spirit can forgive you, but when you reject the Holy Spirit, you're sawing off the branch on which you're sitting, severing by your own perversity all connection with the One who forgives.

LOL Might as well add some more fuel to this blog.
We all make too big a deal about the way people culturally speak. Are we loving those around us unconditionally? Last I read we are not supposed to be finger pointing at all.... Perversity can be found in the cleanest speaking individual... Language is not necessarily a mark of holiness.    

sorry, i was unaware that this conversation was still going on. i hadn't checked in a while. clinton, i totally agree with you that one should not sin in their anger. however, and i'm not trying to win anything here, so don't take this as any sort of a show offy "listen to me!" type thing. i just honestly, HONESTLY, don't believe that using that word is a sin. you do. for me, the phrase that i used to paraphrase jesus' words to the "ultra-religious-consumed-with-the-traditions-of-men-rather-than-god's-actual-word" Pharisees IS saying, "you hypocrites." that is where i believe things get relegated to a "matter of the conscience" as addressed by the apostle paul in his letter to the church in rome.
on this issue, i just don't think we see eye to eye. and for me, that's okay. the apostle aso addresses that issue as well a few verses later. the only "must" in the kingdom is a heart surrendered to god in everything. and as long as we have that in common, in my opinion, nothing else matters.

thank you wendy for your comments. they speak directly to my heart and comfort me to know i'm not alone.    

Jon,

I am convinced that what is sin for one person might not be for another. However, this is honestly the first time that I have had a Christian tell me that he did not consider cursing to be a sin. I must leave this between you and God, but ponder this – what sort of a testimony is it to sinners who are watching you to see if you are truly different? When they hear you talking that way they simply conclude that you are no different than they are.

I do believe that the Christian walk is the relentless pursuit of God throughout one’s life, and as one grows he becomes more Christ-like. No one will ever be able to convince me that Jesus used vulgar curse words because it is not his nature -- he was totally sinless. Even is such a curse word is not actually a sin, it is by no means godly and wholesome.

Ephesians 4:29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come our of your mouths…